Template talk:Clay

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Is it truly neccessary we have TWO item templates? When I said I wanted you to try to follow my Item Template's style, I did not mean make your own template based off of mine. I meant that if you were going to add a...Armor Template, would be the item template with additional information relevant to armor. This thing is pretty much my template with a more confusing variable set-up, and from what I see, remnants of a poor copy-paste.

Every page with this template has an issue with an unused description as well.

What is it going to be? My template or this? Personally, I like mine more, but inconsistencies like this slow work to a halt.

Why exactly did you create it anyway? --EVA-251 16:55, 30 October 2007 (MDT)

Rebuttal
Great. I smell a wiki-war. My Rebuttal: Claytonius3 08:35, 31 October 2007 (MDT)
 * 1) I also do not want two templates, and I don't think it will last long, so don't worry.
 * 2) I approve of your table layout, so I copied it. If that bothers you excessively I can change the color or something...
 * 3) It will not be necessary to create a new template for armor or weapons. By using conditional statements, we can cause the "Damage", "To Hit%" etc columns to appear dynamically as needed. I will be happy to take care of that. I enjoy conditionals.
 * 4) What about my parameters is confusing? I think that they are each named descriptively. Since the template include text will undoubtably be copy-and-paste'd, there is no reason to use short, unhelpful parameter names.
 * 5) As for your parameters, the name "soldat" does not indicate to an editor that this parameter is intended to also include the price. Why are "bought" and "price" seperate, yet "soldat" includes the price?
 * 6) For description, you seem to expect both the mouseover (hover) description AND the explanation. Why not seperate them, as I have done, so that the "official" description is segregated from the explanation of the item?
 * 7) "Class" is a word that appears neither in-game (as applied to items) or in the wiki. What justification is there for naming a parameter so out-of-context?
 * 8) Which pages have copy-and-paste errors? I do not deny using copy and paste. Indeed, having created more than 300 pages from scratch, I have been only too happy to utilize this option.
 * 9) Which pages have an unused description? Let me know, and I will happily fix them.
 * 10) Only a few pages use template "clay". These 20 pages are my testing pages. They will of course be changed to whatever template is eventually decided on. As to "work slowing to a halt": I have been spent on average 10 hours a week on this section. On the contrary, work was proceeding at a very satisfactory pace with the help of a few other players until your entry into the fray. As of now, there is no point to continue data-entry or research on individual items until the core page of the project is completed to everyone's satisfaction. Or, at the very least, untill parameter names and functions are guaranteed not to change.
 * It is clearly marked as "BETA" on the main page, so users have no reasonable expectation of a time-table.
 * Your template does not include each item in the "All Items" category. How else will this category be populated?
 * This is a test. I think it meets all of my requirements. My problems with your template are addressed on my talk page. As a test, the positive features will be rolled into the final template, and the bad features discarded. Consider it a prototype.


 * I don't want a wiki-war. My naming syntax comes from my 8 years of modding experience in games like Quake I and Red Alert II. Both games use syntax for commands, one of the things that is discouraged when using variables or labelling sections is using spaces. When I started modding Red Alert II, I used spaced labelling alot, and made modding hell. ([HELI] is much easier to type then [ATTACK HELICOPTER] and editing programs handle the first better). That is why I prefer using over . It is easier to type, and is less confusing when you look at it when editing. (then again you dont use line breaks when making the stuff
 * is direct copy-pasta from my Weapon Template.
 * And when I said copy-paste, I meant some things from the Item Template were not changed.

=DSFARGEG=
 * My templates issue addressed-
 * My description was placed under only because during my editing phase, it was stretching the tables in the previews. That is the hover description, but I made the mistake of plugging any misc information when I implemented it. Miscellaneous information, like Guides, would be seperated from the table and placed under it with a divider. Preferrably using something like http://www.wiki.hellrising.com/index.php?title=Template:Hidden . YES, MO, I WANT IT HERE AS WELL!
 * Name is something not really necessary, true, and can be easily removed if required.
 * To be honest, if a newbie needs to be told on every article on clothing that you get a [Wear] button, they need to be permanently banned from playing the game. One should read a page about clothing and go "Hmm...Wear. Oh duh. I can wear it." Explaining EVERY single aspect of the game ruins some of the fun of it. Let there be a little mystery and intrigue for new players, not 'OH LOOK DEMONIC SWORD, ME GO KILL DEMONS NOW'.

Also lets try to keep this discussion central, because I hate reading multiple pages when there could be just one.

And...Consider the issues of my template fixed. --EVA-251 09:18, 31 October 2007 (MDT)


 * Oh yeah, I will agree that Armor/Weapon/Item need to be assimilated, with a variable to control the left table cell's color. --EVA-251 09:56, 31 October 2007 (MDT)
 * Good idea with the color, too.Claytonius3 10:39, 31 October 2007 (MDT)


 * I agree, lets keep the discussion here, shall we?


 * I am still not happy with the parameter names, but I appreciate your experience. Since anyone using the item template would be copy-pasting only, I don't see the problem. I realize that in many languages/enviroments, errant whitespaces can cause problems, but that problem does not occur here. As such, I prefer to make the parameter names as clear as possible. Would using "_" instead of " " be a reasonable compromise?


 * I do agree that your template page looks better. (especially having the example table at the top) I prefer to have the hover description inside the table, since it comes from the same source as most of the other information. Perhaps we can just make the hover description the last item in the table? That way a large block of text would not disrupt other lines.


 * Misc information under the table is equal to my above-the-table layout. Doesn't matter to me.


 * Since I am not a member of hellrising, I can't see the actual wiki text for the "hidden template". If you think it might be helpful, can you paste it here somewhere please?

Claytonius3 10:37, 31 October 2007 (MDT)
 * Since inexperienced players would use the wiki far more than you or I, It is my firm opinion that the wiki should be geared towards them. That was, after all, the reason that I started this project a few hundred pages ago. A more experienced player can easily ignore the "obvious" information, but I do not know of any way to cause the "obvious" information to appear only to new players. More broadly, the whole purpose of the wiki is to provide information. If we leave some out intentionally, whom does that help?


 * http://www.wiki.hellrising.com/index.php?title=Location_Types

This uses the Hidden Template.
 * As for adding underscores, I dont really care. That makes it from confusing to just needlessly long. I tried to keep mine as descriptive as possible but short and concise, as to make editing less of a difficult affair. As for your template page, it is simple. Make the Table visible.--EVA-251 11:06, 31 October 2007 (MDT)
 * Thanks for adding that. I will the parameters later.Claytonius3 11:13, 31 October 2007 (MDT)
 * Ok. Still couldn't tell what a hidden template does. So I just created an account. Gosh, that is some code right there! I don't know much about css, so it means little to me. Is it just a way to format the font of two lines?
 * All right. I broke the template call (on the item page) into seperate lines. that should make it easier to read, and I tested that it still works fine. I was worried about that. Other than that, what is your concern with longer parameter names? Just the extra typing when editing the template page? Claytonius3 11:20, 31 October 2007 (MDT)


 * Well, it looks awkward when editing and takes more to type. Also, I'd like to tell you I found out a huge fix for incompatability, huge, I mean.

Comes out like

--EVA-251 11:34, 31 October 2007 (MDT)

Yeah, that is a handy feature. I don't think I had thought of that before. I see you used it for class/category. Until we merge, that is a great idea. I will do that too. Claytonius3 11:39, 31 October 2007 (MDT)

I think I understand (part of) your aversion to long parameter names. I wonder if it is because when a page uses your template, the user must either type in the call with only the parameters they know, or else delete the ones they don't? Because with just, if the user copies the whole template call but leaves a parameter blank (i.e. {{Item|price=|... ) then {{{parameter name}}} will be displayed!

That is why I switched to using {{ #if: {{{parameter}}} | {{{parameter}}} | ??? }}! With that layout, when the parameter is called but not given a value the display will be "???".

For my version, The user copies the whole template call, and if they do not want to use (or do not know) a parameter, they can just leave it blank! See Human Skin Vest for example, and change the values of a parameter to "" empty and see what happens! Claytonius3 11:59, 31 October 2007 (MDT)

Playing Nicely With Others

 * Template_talk:Test

This scarred post-apocalyptic battlerr. yeah. A direct copy-pasta with a few minor changes which are explained. But I see the benefits of what you did with the #IFs, and hiding content. Something that I should consider for mine, except it would make the Template next to uneditable... Either way the 2 templates are coming to a point where they'll be fully cross-compatible. -EVA

The thing is, I would rather have a complicated but more powerful template, than ~300 items with different template calls. That is, without the IFs, to call your template, the creator of an item page has to only copy-paste the parameters for which they have a value. With mine, they copy-paste the whole call and just leave unknown parameters blank. I think it is nice to have the template do all of the work. That is the reason we are using templates, anyway. Currently the differences between our templates are:
 * Mine can print out usage information based on 1 word input, or allow the full output to be typed directly. (Good for 1-of-a-kind items.)
 * Mine has the navigation box at the bottom. I think all pages should have it. most of the old ones do. Should be no trouble to paste into bottom of template.
 * Parameter names: Yours are shorter, easier to type. Mine are longer, more clear. Pretty much solved now, though.
 * If your template is called with no value to a parameter (i.e.,nowiki>{{item|class=|type=hat..., the text {{{class| ??? }}} will be output.
 * I think that is it. Anything else?  Claytonius3 12:30, 31 October 2007 (MDT)

New problem. For some reason, my maxstack if isn't working. it looks the same as the others, so it should. Can you take a look at it for me? I have a feeling that I am missing a brace or something. A page with the template called (and the bad output) is Human_Skin_Vest. Also having trouble with the case/switch using both parameter names. I might just put the whole case/switch in another template, and call it from inside item.(or clay, for now) Claytonius3 12:43, 31 October 2007 (MDT)

Thanks for fixing my spelling mistake. But checking the Human Skin Vest page, I see that it did not fix the other problem. not sure what to do about that... Claytonius3

Ok, It seems that the if then else ( if then else(???) structure does not work. I was playing areund with Human Skin Vest and it seems that the only way to get the default (???) output is by calling both parameters (yours and mine) empty. Working on it. I know it worked with only 1 parameter, so there has to be a way to make this work. Claytonius3 14:23, 31 October 2007 (MDT)
 * It isn't possible. Try a Template:Item user on this. It doesn't work. I don't care what you do now, pursue either my method or yours. I am not going to interfere until things look ugly. --EVA-251 16:13, 31 October 2007 (MDT)
 * Oh god my eyes. --EVA-251 14:12, 2 November 2007 (MDT)

=Be back Monday== I think I am sooo close to getting this to work the way I want. Please, no one mess with it. thanks, Claytonius3 17:14, 2 November 2007 (MDT)